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Welcome to this special episode of Inclusive Stages, where I'm joined by two of my favorite collaborators and incredible colleagues, Zena Collins and Dr. Charmain Jackman. We sit down to discuss the state of inclusion work—especially the big question of how to keep pushing forward as inclusion practitioners despite what’s going on in the world around us.
The real gold of this episode is what happened before we hit record. Zena, Dr. Charmain, and I have the benefit of a shared vocabulary and vision. But when it came time to record, we weren't entirely in agreement about how to frame this conversation and what we felt we could or wanted to talk about publicly at this moment in time.
We did what we teach folks in our program and in our work! We took the time to create a truly brave space for the conversation you're about to hear. On the surface, you'll hear us reflecting on where each of us stands in this work and sharing what we're individually grappling with.
Deeper still, this is a story about the groundwork we laid beforehand, about 3 unique black women, each with differing perspectives and identities, finding common ground to engage in a conversation that honors our hopes, our challenges, and our truths as we continue to shape a path forward in inclusion.
I hope this episode can serve as a model for creating brave spaces built on trust, respect, and relationship building, and what it looks like to engage in conversations from that place.
In this episode, we cover:
How we define inclusion as inclusion practitioners
The 6 dimensions of inclusion work
Questions to ask as you enter different spaces to keep inclusion in mind
What needs to be established prior to having difficult conversations
This work is not nice-to-have work or soft work—this is the work that will help the arts and entertainment spaces not just survive, but thrive! I hope you enjoy this conversation and that it inspires you to start having more thoughtful, nuanced, and of course, brave conversations in your corners of the world.
If you’re feeling called to make a difference in the world as an inclusion practitioner, be sure to check out our second cohort certification program which begins in February 2025!
More About Zena Collins
Zena is an advisor at Accordant Advisors specializing in business development and culture change architect working with leaders to build high performing inclusive teams through the development of emotional intelligence hard ability skills.
More About Dr. Jackman
Dr. Charmain Jackman, an award-winning psychologist, author, Tedx speaker, leadership coach and CEO/founder of InnoPsych, is a champion for inclusive mental health and psychologically safe workplaces. She leverages her experiences with burnout and racial stress to elevate conversations about healthy self-care practices and to inspire others to take daily actions to prioritize their mental health through joy and mindfulness. She has received several awards for her impactful work including City of Boston’s 2021 Black History Month’s Innovator of the Year and has been featured on prominent media outlets including New York Times, NPR, PBS, Oprah Daily, Essence, and the Boston Globe.
Links & Mentioned Resources
Connect with Zena:
Connect with Dr. Charmain:
Connect with Kira:
Thanks for joining me on this episode of Inclusive Stages! If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on Apple or Spotify to help me reach even more theater makers, theater artists, and theater lovers who want to make our industry a better place for everyone.
Thanks to our music composer, Zachary McConnell, and our producer, Leah Bryant.
More about the Inclusive Stages Podcast
Welcome to 'Inclusive Stages' -- the go-to weekly podcast for theater makers, theater artists, and theater lovers who want to make our industry a better place for everyone. We'll chat with actors, directors, designers, scholars, and more about the current landscape of the theater scene and get their thoughts on how we can do better.
Host Kira Troilo will also give you a sneak peek into live EDI coaching sessions and offer actionable tips for creating more equitable, inclusive, and empathetic theater spaces that support and value the diversity of artists and audiences. Join the conversation, and let's collectively shape the future of human-first theater, one stage at a time.
This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you.
The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Inclusive Stages podcast follows:
00:00:02
Are you a theater maker, theater artist, or theater lover who wants to make the theater industry better for all of us? You're in the right place. Hey there, I'm Kira Troilo, a theater artist, creative professional, and mom who quit her job and devoted her career to equity, diversity, and inclusion for the arts. Through decades of work in theater spaces, I couldn't help but recognize a gaping hole in our industry, the shocking lack of care and support available for creatives. Since 2020, I've become obsessed with creating actual human resources for the humans who create theater in community. Enter the Inclusive Stages podcast, a shame-free zone where we put my framework for inclusive theater spaces to practice. Here, we'll build bridges through curiosity and conversation, and we'll never shy away from real talk. Join me as I break down relevant, hot-button topics of our day and chat with fascinating industry professionals about their experiences in the theater world. Plus, I'll even show you how I help actors navigate identity differences to tell brave and compelling stories, all while maintaining psychological safety. Ready to start building care-forward creative spaces where humans and art can both thrive? It all happens one stage at a time. Places, everyone. This is the Inclusive Stages podcast.
00:01:35
Hello, theater friends. Welcome to this special episode of Inclusive Stages, where I'm joined by two of my favorite collaborators and incredible colleagues, Zena Collins and Dr. Charmain Jackman. On this episode, we sat down on November 11th, 2024 to dive into the state of inclusion work, especially the big question of how can we keep pushing for high-performing teams in the arts no matter what's going on in the world around us. But the real gold of this episode is what happened before we hit record. Zena, Dr. Charmain, and I have been talking weekly for most of 2024, so we have the benefit of a shared vocabulary and vision in this work. But when it came time to record on this day, we weren't entirely in agreement about how to frame this conversation and what we felt we could or wanted to talk about publicly in this moment in time.
00:02:28
So we did what we teach folks in our cohort and in our work. We took the time to create a truly brave space for the conversation you're about to hear. On the surface, you'll hear us reflecting on where each of us stands in this work and sharing what we're individually grappling with. But deeper still, this is a story about the groundwork we laid beforehand, about three unique Black women, each with differing perspectives and identities, finding common ground to engage in a conversation that honors our hopes, our challenges, our truths, as we continue to shape a path forward in inclusion. The loudest thing on my mind in this work and inclusion in this moment is that we as an industry need to learn how to engage in hard conversations that lead to stronger, more connected people, organizations, and art.
00:03:19
I hope this episode can serve as a model for creating brave spaces built on trust, respect, and relationship building, and what it then looks like to engage in conversation from that place. Also in this episode, you'll hear us referencing the six dimensions of inclusion that guide our work. Those dimensions are safe, respected, connected, acknowledged, supported, and empowered. Too often in EDI work, we disagree on what inclusion even means and how we measure success. So that's what we're hoping to do is define it, define the work of inclusion so that we can all operate from a shared definition. So these dimensions are how we define it and what it means to us to create equitable systems that support all people across differences and allow them to feel those six things deeply in their work, in the arts, and in their lives.
00:04:16
And if you're interested in learning more from us, please head on over to inclusivestages.com to register for our second cohort certification program. It's beginning in February, 2025, and there we learn how to bring this work alive in the art and entertainment spaces. We believe wholeheartedly that this is not soft work. This is not nice to have work. This is the work that will help our industry survive. And I mean that survive and thrive. So I hope you enjoy this conversation and I hope it inspires you to start having more thoughtful, nuanced, and of course, brave conversations. In your corners of the world. All right, I am here with my fellow Inclusive Stages colleagues. I have Zena Collins. Hey, Zena. Hi, Kira. Hey, and I have Dr. Charmain Jackman. How's it going?
00:05:09
Good, good to see you. Good to be here. Yes, always good to see you both. So today we just wanted to hop on and have a short conversation. We're here trying to make a difference in the inclusion space. And largely I think we can get into it, but I think trying to either redefine or define how we do this work and under what circumstances and using what definitions and what tools. So today really, it felt like a good time to hop on and talk about how we are gonna promote high-performing teams, regardless of the social context. So regardless of what's going on for people. Here we are on November 11th, 2024. Something that was sticking with me and I've been kind of grappling with is this author, Anad Giridharadas, I'm hoping I'm pronouncing that correctly, has said recently that inclusion to many people has started to come off as elitist or out of touch or just inaccessible.
00:06:14
And I'm grappling with that because to me, this work is obviously it's inclusion. It is about the opposite of that. And having everyone operating from the same definitions in many ways, EDI or DEI or whatever anyone wants to call it has been weaponized. So I'm gonna come to each of you to just kind of get your feelings, your take. And again, just at this moment in time with the conversation continuing, I'm gonna start with you, Zina. What are you thinking at this moment about creating these high-performing teams in this moment in time? I think it always starts for me when I'm thinking about the work that I do and the work I've done historically around people and organizational change with a shared vision and a shared language.
00:07:06
And so a lot of the times when people talk about things being inaccessible or elitist, it's often because it hasn't been defined. So there hasn't been an ability for people really to understand what it means and how it can be applied to their own experiences. And so that's one of the reasons why I'm really excited about the way that we are looking to define inclusion using this idea of the six dimensions. Because ultimately, if you think about it from Maslow's hierarchy of needs and just from a human context, and I know there's been a number of adaptations of that model to apply to different communities as well. Ultimately, all we want to be is safe, respected, connected, acknowledged, supported, and empowered in some ways.
00:07:54
And a colleague of mine, Sean Coker, who I've worked with doing some diversity training, always starts with his definitions to say that we are all diverse. It's context that determines whether we are a minority or majority. But if we start from the place that at some point we've all felt different, then that really helps us to think about how we create environments that enable us all to perform effectively. And so that is the lens that I'm looking at, the opportunity we have to engage with organizations who are grappling with what it means to be able to support their people and make everybody feel like they're part of the inclusion conversation. Yeah, thank you. Charmaine, what are you thinking about and grappling with in this inclusion conversation right now?
00:08:46
So I started a company that's focused on addressing inequities in mental health. So, you know, we focus on mental health and lead in conversations that bring in voices that have historically not had a place at the table, right? So focusing on people of color, thinking about access and utilization of mental health resources. So informing this company, you know, there are lots of questions about why are you focusing on this particular group? And I think about that, right? Because sometimes bringing people in from the margins, right, centering people whose experiences and voices have been excluded, can feel for people as though it is leaving their voices out. Even though their voices have been centered. And I think that that continues to be something I wrestle with in my company.
00:09:42
How do I get access to resources, right? As a Black woman that we see that those resources are often fewer for us. So how do I access resources, elevate voices that have been left out of the conversation without people feeling that like it's either or. Either we bring these people up and along, we elevate their voices because they have been excluded or how do we make space for all voices, right? And what does that mean? But when you say all voices, I sometimes worry that that continues to contribute to inequities, right? And so it is a complicated conversation. But I think that, you know, in our conversations, how do we center inclusion and have everybody see themselves in that work, in that conversation, right? I think that is the work.
00:10:39
And it's not easy, right? It's never been easy. I don't think it's getting any easier. Yeah, that's kind of where I stand. I wrestle with that. How do I help people see that when we build stronger systems that center those that have been marginalized, we actually have a system that benefits everybody? Yeah, absolutely. I recently was part of a conversation on a panel where we were talking about support in terms of costumes and hair. This conversation was specifically about black performers and backstage crew people. And the conversation was mostly talking about how, you know, these marginalized voices and people haven't had resources. And that's all true. You know, I wrote an ebook about that. And, you know, I think the conversation kind of was centering around representation and how it's important.
00:11:36
And I said, yes, and we also need to support and empower the folks who hold the space. If they're, you know, predominantly white institutions, it's not about them saying, yeah, representation matters. Let's just get some black designers in here. It's, no, how can we feel supported by the information and the resources and empowered to run this organization in a way that we all feel like we know what we're doing? I hope that makes sense, but it's the difference between, for me, like you don't know what you're doing. You need to bring in this identity to let's all have a conversation about what's needed based on the context of what we're doing. Everyone's gonna come from different places and then in the knowledge and whatever they need to feel empowered in the conversation and in the support.
00:12:30
But it is making it so that it's not excluding people. It's bringing everyone into this. I think you make a really important point, Kira, just from the fact that now, like always, we really have to think dialectically rather than in dichotomous ways. So when I say that, what I mean is dichotomous really is when you're looking at things from a black and white perspective in terms of it's either or. So when we think about dialectic thinking, it's really about thinking more emotionally intelligently and recognizing the fact that even within certain groups that are considered marginalized, people will have different viewpoints in terms of the way that they process the world. And I think in this work, I think one of the challenges that I find is this need to acknowledge or the lack of acknowledging the power and privilege that we have even when we sit in a group that may be considered marginalized, that people that aren't considered marginalized may not have the privileges.
00:13:34
So just to personalize it, I guess I'm an immigrant who is black of African descent, but from the UK, born in Britain with a British accent and female, heterosexual. And so when I come into rooms in different situations, depending on the lens that people see me through depends on how I leverage my power and privilege. And I think this work for me is about what we do in the shared spaces because that's where I can control the situation. What people do in their private spaces is beyond all of our control. But because we spend so much time in these shared spaces, if we're able to come together to think about what the values we share represent in order for us to achieve our individual goals, whether that's a collective production, whether that's earning a living to make our families better, I think those are the things that these conversations need to be centered around as a fundamental principle.
00:14:34
And then once we build connection and we've built relationships on those pieces, then we can have the more difficult conversations. But I think a lot of the times we're trying to go to the difficult conversations before we've built the connection and understanding of where people come from and where they really sit within these wheels of privilege and power. And the last thing I would say to that would be that often we are living in our own bubbles. And so we're all constantly confirming our beliefs within those bubbles. And we are constantly thinking that other people see the world in the same way that we do. And we did a recent inclusion survey with an organization and asked them to assess how they prioritize their identity.
00:15:21
And their race and gender were like maybe six or seven on the list and their values was number one. And this is a diverse group of people. And so part of the bias of the narrative around marginalized people is that, and I think recent social events have shown is that you can't assume that just because somebody is determined as marginalized, they see themselves as marginalized in certain contexts and they have a shared identity with other people that are marginalized. And so we need to be more sophisticated about how we have these conversations. And as you described Kira, there are nuances in all the issues that different people have down to something that people would seem as, some people may seem as superficial as hair or as being able to have a mic, but all of that contributes to how people feel safe, respected, acknowledged, which then creates bigger issues if you don't resolve them at the core.
00:16:17
Yeah, thank you for that Zena. And thank you for personalizing too. I mean, I just agree with so much of that. And for me personally, I'm a mixed race black woman who is in a ton of different spaces. My identity or how people see my identity is different based on where I am. So if I'm in an all white space, then I am the only person of color. If I'm in an all black space, I might be a lighter skinned person of color. If I'm in a space that's all LGBTQ plus folks, then I am cisgender heterosexual population there. So the context matters. I say this a lot too. And like, it depends where I am, but the thing that doesn't change is my values.
00:17:01
I'm always gonna go in with a growth mindset, wholeheartedly with compassion. That's how I have pledged to show up in every space that I am. And what's important to me is understanding the context of who I am in any given space. And that can also inform how I might be able to help, how I might be able to use my privilege in a space where I have it, or use a voice and advocate in a space where I might not. Charmaine, I also wanna give you the chance to talk on that if that strikes you at all. I identify as a black woman first. I am from the Caribbean, still immigrant is part of my identity. Cisgender, parent, psychologist, like, right, all those things make up who I am.
00:17:52
And I bring those identities. They think like you, Kira, like you enter a space and what do people see first? I don't think I can hide my blackness. I can't hide my womanhood, right? I think those are things. And you're right, depending on what the context is, people may resonate with some of those identities, be curious, be nervous, right? All of those things kind of happen as we're showing up. I am someone who's also introverted. So when I enter spaces, I go into observer mood. I look for people who I can connect with, right? That's kind of my way of processing and identifying safety in spaces. But I think as a psychologist, and I think as a person who grew up as an only child, I always think about whose voices or experiences are being left out.
00:18:47
Like, I always look to, like, can I bring you into this conversation, right? I try to find, I look and see who is not paired up. You know, I really, I think at my core, like inclusion is critical and key. And I make sure I bring in other people's voices, I think because I'm someone who's had to work to bring my voice into spaces. But I think that those are the things that are important to me. So when we talk about inclusion, I think that is one of my core values. And similar to you, you know, Zena as well, Kira, it depends on when you enter a space, like what identity kind of shows up. I think I'm always leading with, am I going to feel included in this space?
00:19:29
And how are other people feeling, experiencing inclusion in the spaces? I think that's probably a question that comes up for me when I enter spaces. I think people are drawn to this work for some reason. You know, so it's like the X-Men, there was something that happened in your childhood or in your life that then draws you to, you know, be a champion for people in this space or want to do this work. But I also think that that's why, you know, us coming together as people who may, for some people from an identity perspective, look the same, but have very different experiences. It's so important because it gives us ability to have emotional, intelligent conversations.
00:20:11
I mean, even the way we came to this conversation and we spent time really creating a inclusive space where we could share differences of opinions to come to a place where we agreed on something that we could talk about, where everybody felt safe to have that conversation. And I just think it's really about our ability to maybe role model that because people don't see that often enough and they make assumptions about, in particularly, and I'll personalize this again, how we as black women will show up based on our experience and our knowledge. And the vast knowledge that you have, Dr. Charmain, and the vast amount of knowledge that you have, Kira, has opened my eyes to think about things so differently that I just believe that's one of the only ways,
00:20:58
is creating safe spaces where people can have emotionally intelligent conversations and I'll be given the skills to know what emotionally intelligent conversations look like within a framework that everybody knows that the objective is to make sure that they feel included on those six dimensions. And if they don't, they have the safety to lean into which dimension they're not feeling safe in and what we can all do to fix that in a curious way, in a way that is about connecting rather than necessarily correcting their views because that's a person's own personal journey, right? I think that one of the things that maybe we can peel back, like how did we get to this conversation today? It's pretty quick. I mean, we've been meeting weekly for months now, right?
00:21:47
So I know when I leaned in, I was like, here are the boundaries. Here's what I'm willing to talk about. Here's not what I'm willing to talk about. Here's what I can talk about in our private space versus our public space, right? So being able to share and talk about why, we talked about the why, why that was important to us in a very quick way. I think we were able to accelerate that conversation because of the relationship we've built. And so like one was about setting, what are my boundaries in this space? What can I tolerate or not tolerate in this space? I think that was one thing that stood out for me and I felt was important, but I also felt brave.
00:22:24
I know Kira, you like to use brave spaces versus safe spaces, but I also felt brave to do that because I know we are in relationship with each other and that if there was a rupture or there was a tension that we would find a way to work it through. So there was trust in the work and that's, think about inclusion practitioners, you walk into a space, how do you build trust with a group of people in a very short amount of time, right? That is a superpower skill, I'll have to say. That's all superpower. Yes, and I'm learning more and more, it is a superpower. And I don't think I could say any of that better than the two of you just said.
00:23:08
I think it's been a true gift to have you both in my life and in my work and to hear the differing perspectives that you may have. You can't do inclusion work, I truly believe, in a vacuum by yourself wondering, is this connecting? You know, I hate to use the word right, but you know, how does this feel to everyone else? So I hope that's what we've done here in this conversation is show an example, this is what it looks like, this is it. And then what does, like I think you said, Dr. Charmain, what does inclusion look like and feel like in this context? We certainly created the context here and then began a conversation. So I'm hoping that this short conversation can serve as a model for others to go forth.
00:23:54
Yeah, can I pull out too, I think Zena also, you leaned into like, we can disagree. Like you reminded us that we can do that. What were some other things you guys found that we kind of named as we're preparing to have this conversation that could be helpful for people, right? As they think about it. Yeah, I love the way you stated your boundaries, Dr. Charmain, and because of the relationship we've built and also the mindfulness that we're bringing into the way that we work together, it was critical to think about, for me, there was a place I wouldn't wanted to get to, but I needed to be compassionate and delicate about the way I did that because I wanted to maintain the relationship. And so you setting a boundary made me do the work.
00:24:42
And so I really appreciated that. I love that. And something I did intentionally was offer options. I do this all the time in my work is, even as actors and like, maybe one day it's option A, the other day it's option B, it's all welcome and okay. So what does this conversation look like? Here are three options and let's discuss which one makes us feel the bravest and the safest. No, you did a great job. You kept coming back to that. I tried. You did a phenomenal job. Thank you. Yeah. And I think I kept saying, well, what's our goal? That I came back to like, what is our goal? What are we hoping to gain? Because it was kind of setting, creating the container, right, because these conversations can go far and wide.
00:25:29
And so I knew given our limited time, what was our goal? That's right. That's right. Yes. And I think this is so powerful. I'm excited to share this and I'm excited to continue a conversation with you both. We'll keep showing up and we'll keep talking. So thank you both for your time today. Thank you, Kira. Yes, and your generosity and all of it, everything you showed up with today. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the Inclusive Stages podcast. If you love the show, please be sure to like and subscribe to our channel. We have so many exciting guests and important topics coming up. You won't want to miss a single episode. This podcast is completely listener supported.
00:26:12
If you would like to become a patron of the show, please check out the link in the show notes to join us over at Patreon. Patrons have access to exclusive bonus content and also the opportunity to ask questions that could be answered live on future shows. Also, be sure to follow along with us on Instagram, YouTube, and Facebook at Inclusive Stages. And don't forget to head over to inclusivestages.com to sign up for our email newsletter to stay up to date with exciting upcoming offers like our first cohort certification program. Lastly, and most importantly, if you love Inclusive Stages, it would mean the absolute world to us if you could take 30 seconds to review our show and give us a five-star rating. That really helps those silly. algorithms get our show in front of more theater lovers like you. As always, thank you to our producer, Leah Bryant, and our music composer, Zachary McConnell. See you next time.
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